BVR: MAR y otras consideraciones. (números..)

[mppzgz]

Copio de BMS forums.

1. Terms and definitions.

Measurable Values:
F-Pole: Distance between shooter and target at missile impact
A-Pole: Distance between Shooter and target at the moment the missile goes autonomous. (also called M-Pole sometimes because that´s how it is displayed on the F16 HUD, not sure if this is technically correct)
Both values are measured after the fight.

Predefined values
E-Pole: Keep that distance between you and the bandit and you´re safe. he can not reach you

MAR (Minimum Abort Range): Keep that distance between you and the bandit and you´re safe. he can not reach you
What is the difference between MAR and E-Pole? Has MAR a litte extra for the 180° turn to be cold? Has MAR a litte security buffer? Is MAR the predicted value and E-Pole the real max range the bandit did get when reviewing the ACMI? Do both terms mean the same thing?

MOR (Minimum Out Range): if you turn cold at MOR you have enough room to come hot again. get radar contact and shoot, before MAR comes up and you have to out.
if I try to calculate the delta between MOR and MAR I come up with something like this.

Time to fly a 360 at altitude without loosing to much speed and energy. Say 12° per second = 30 seconds times the enemys speed (mach 1 = 10 miles per minute) = 5 miles + say 10 more seconds to sort and get rdy to fire (another 1.5 miles)
MOR = MAR + 6.5 miles

MOR, MAR (and E-Pole?) have to be predefined and are the cue for certain actions.

Values displayed by the F16 Avionics
Raero (Range Aerodynamic): The small triangle represents (Raero) represents the maximum kinematic range of the
AMRAAM and is the longest possible shot a pilot can take with a chance of hitting a nonmaneuvering
hostile. It assumes the AMRAAM is launched with optimum ASC conditions. It currently does not take optimum loft conditions into account (which would further increase the range)

Ropt (Range Optimum) The small circle represents (Ropt) the maximum launch range with some buffer to account for any offset hostile turns. It is 85% of Raero and currently does not assume the shooter will achieve optimum steering and pitch.

Rpi (Range Probability of Intercept) It is 75% of Raero and represents a maximal range launch that has a high probability of hitting the hostile given current steering.

Rtr (Range Turn and Run) Rtr represents the maximum range shot assuming that the hostile performs a turn-and-run maneuver at launch.
Rmin (Range Minimum) Rmin represents the minimum AMRAAM launch range.

The M-pole Pre Launch Cue Once inside Ropt the M-pole pre-launch cue will appear on the HUD and represents the distance (nm) between own ship and hostile when the AMRAAM goes active (uses its internal radar “the pit-bull”). The “M” is computed based on target aspect angle, size and speed.

2.Example engagement, Distances/ Values measured in F4.

All shots taken high and fast and small bit after Ropt. and with solid loft angle:

Nosing over to level flight and staying hot at Full AB my missile did hit the Mig at 16 miles distance. The missile was not that much faster then me so distance between me and the missile did not really increase anymore

If I crank, and pump at pitbull the distance between me and the slammer at impact was 25 miles (the slammer was still doing Mach 1,7 at impact while I was doing Mach 1,5 in the opposite direction). Max distance between me and my slammer (with enough speed and time for good end game maneuvering) is probably around 28 miles.

Predicted M-Pole was 11 miles and 12 miles in the 2nd engagement.

Actual M-Pole ( the distance when I started to out at Pitbull) was between 19 and 20 miles (due to the crank and speed change and also the migs maneuvering). Minimum distance to the Mig was 18.5 miles.
The enemys AA12 got within 1.5 miles of me.



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ESTA PERSONA, QUE HA DADO ESA INFORMACIÓN HACE UNAS PREGUNTAS (QUE NO HE COPIADO).

ESTA RESPUESTA COMPLEMENTA y REALMENTE AQUI ES DONDE ESTA LA MIGA.
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Everything should be bases on the range for a tail aspect shot. No clue what the correct term for this is but let´s invent this:
T-Pole (Tail pole)
T-Pole can be measured relatively easily, Everyone flys in the same direction, shooter, target, and missile and you measure the max distance between shooter and missile

T-Pole should indeed be pretty close to the Predicted Rtr. E-Pole, I believe, takes optimal post shot maneuvering into account so E-Pole is something else (Bit I could be wrong)

To calculate some distances to add lets use the following assumptions (which are in the ballpark).
Speed of shooter and target, mach 1, 10 miles per minute.
Lets also assume a useful TOF for the Missile of 60 seconds (actual TOF is in the range of 90 seconds but for the last part of the flight the missile is often slower then shooter and target, so not closing anymore on a cold target and also we need some energy for endgame maneuvering)

MAR without any indication that you have been shot at already (or for a enemy that stays straight hot on you) would be

T-Pole + the distance covered by the enemy while you do your 180° turn to out + a little bit of safety buffer.
at 12°/sec you need 15 seconds for the turn, = 0.25 min.
0.25 min * 10 miles/min = 2.5 miles + a bit of safety so lets say

MAR = T-pole + 3 miles.

With indication that you have been shot at already (launch warning or just a hunch based on the enemys maneuvering)

add

5 miles if the enemy is cranking (10 miles per min speed, crank to gimbals reduced closure to 5 miles/min so the missile is gaining an extra 5 miles distance in its 60 seconds TOF)

10 miles if the enemy is beaming (his foward velocity is 0 so the missile is gaining 10 miles extra)

20 miles if the enemy is cold (his speed of 10 miles/min goes in the opposite direction)

The 10 and 20 mile values are somewhat theoretical. How is he guiding his shots? Maybe somewhat applicable against enemys that carry long range IR missiles.

if the enemy is shooting active radar missiles and he does a shoot, crank, pump move we can roughly calculate
30 seconds of cranking = 2.5 miles + 15 seconds of beaming = 2.5 miles + 15 seconds of pumping = 5 miles. In total 10 miles.

That roughly fits the values I measured in my first post (16 miles / 28 miles) I was gaining a bit more but the calculation is in the ballpark.

Proposed MAR values based on limited testing:

Enemy with AA-10A
Head on MAR= 14 Miles
If he cranks and you have shot indication increase your MAR to 19 miles

with AA10C
MAR = 26 miles
if he cranks and you have shoot indication increase your MAR to 31 miles

with AA12/Aim120
MAR = 19 miles
If you suspect a shot, he cranks and will pump, increase your MAR to 29 miles.

AA10C are a bit more tricky then AA12 which also feels like that in game to me.

If you engage an emeny that is beaming or even cold MAR does not really help. You won´t be in range outside MAR so you have to press closer and right now you are very safe. If he comes around and fires you are suddenly well inside MAR and you could die if he´s willing to commit suicide and does not respect your threat, if your sorting was not perfect and his wingman pressed etc.

To sum it up
The concept really helps only against inferior missiles and in a head on situation.
For everything else you can choose to respect MAR, That means you´ll stay safe but you won´t get any kills or you take some chances.




FUENTE: http://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/show ... -based-BVR

[Daisan]

Buen trabajo Mario!!

[Daisan]

Interesante post de BVR

http://falcon-online.org/forum/index.ph ... icseen#new

Tiene links interesantes dentro

[Zippo]

Cómo me gusta toda ésta literatura...

Enviado desde mi XT1032 mediante Tapatalk

[Gavilán]

No me habia fijado que era el amigo Hans el que estaba metido en este debate...

[Daisan]

Es verdad! Un tío a tener en cuenta en los foros

Gracias!

[Daisan]

Revisando sus posts, he visto que en uno de ellos se dedicó a poner datos sobre rangos de detección de diferentes aviones de BMS, look up look down, etc. No creo que se detuviese con un par de modelos... yo tengo los datos del allied force, pero no los de BMS. Tienes algo por ahí?